|
This new div will be replaced
|
Freda Fialco Dumes, wife of William Jacob Dumes, was interviewed by Ruth Fishman Zimbler on July 26, 1977, giving an oral history of some of the early life of the Dumes family regarding the time before they came to America and just after as they were establishing their lives here .
This is a transcript and the audio of that interview. |
Sarah Dumes, who married Jacob Kaplan in Europe
Louis Dumes, who married Rebecca
Rebecca Dumes, who married Abraham Lieberman
Arthur Dumes, who marred Jennie
Fanny Dumes, who married Max Fishman
Anna Dumes, who married Abraham Schultz
William Dumes, who married Freda
(Editor's note: Freda uses people's names in relation to who these people were to the interviewer, Ruth Fishman Zimbler, daughter of Fanny and Max Fishman. For example, Freda will say "Uncle Bill" who was in fact her husband but was Ruth's uncle.)
(Editor's note: Fanny sometimes spelled Fannie. It is unclear which spelling she herself used.)
RZ: The first thing Phyllis wanted to know was names of relatives as many generations as you could remember. We've done that already and we've got that. Where they lived and how extensive was the boys' Jewish education? Did Uncle Bill ever talk about that -- Arthur and Louie's Jewish education.?
FD: He didn't say much about it. See of course, Uncle Bill was Bar Mitzvahed here in town. I'd say they didn't have any party or anything like that -- he always said that. And Louie I guess in Russia did have a nice Bar Mitzvah and there Grandpa -- Chaim Yehoshuah -- died when Bill was three years old.
RZ: Would you give his father's name again?
FD: Chaim Yehoshuah.
RZ: Uncle Bill was three years old at the time. He was the youngest, right, he was younger?
FD: No, there was another boy, younger than him, but he died.
RZ: But Aunt Anna is older than Uncle Bill?
FD: Three years older, Two years rather.
RZ: None of them served in the Army when they were in Europe?
FD: No, see Uncle Louie was supposed to go into the service and they were very liked in their locality and they arranged it to get him out when they would come around looking for him. They would hide him -- the gentile folks would hide him.
RZ: Was that because, oh, he would have had to go even though Grandpa was dead. He still would have had to go?
FD: So then he came to the United States and when he came to -- when Uncle Arthur became of age, then they left Europe.
RZ: That's when they all came, right? That's when Uncle Arthur and Aunt Anna and ...
FD: And your mother was here, right?
RZ: Yes.
FD: And Uncle Arthur and Anna and Grandpa and Uncle Bill and Bubbe?
RZ: Grandpa was dead.
RZ: Did they ever talk about the living standard that they had, the physical appearance of how they lived, the clothing they wore, the dishes they ate off? And what was their living standard in Russia? Latvia they lived in.
FD: Wiski.
RZ: I have it written down. Hy Kaplan gave it to me.
FD: But they had a service that they got telegrams and mail back and forth.
RZ: I understand that my bubbe was the postmistress. Now was Grandpa the postmaster before?
FD: Then Louie took care and then it went over to Arthur.
RZ: But was my grandfather the postmaster first?
FD: I don't know.
RZ: But we knew that Bubbe was the postmistress, right? That's how they made their living.
FD: I guess they must have been very well liked and Aunt Anna will tell you the street they lived on. They lived near a Schul in Wiski and when Uncle Bill used to talk about the street and when they moved out together with Anna they used to reminisce.
RZ: We talked about how my mother was more Americanized. Did they have a nice home in Wiski?
FD: They must have because Uncle Bill never liked -- he always had fights with them, he wasn't gonna come to United States.. he wasn't going to be there, see, he used to fight with them. And somebody threw a piece of china -- that's how he got his eye hurt.
RZ: His eye was injured in Russia?
FD: Your mother -- that's why he was closer to your mother than any of the rest of them -- your mother used to take him to Vitbsk to a doctor. He wasn't supposed to cry; he cried and he would get up on top of the stove and lay down there. He was mischievous.
RZ: I can believe that.
FD: Then he had a habit -- he wasn't supposed to go swimming, and he went swimming and he almost drowned. Uncle Arthur beat him up and he always said, "I don't know why he should beat me up; he should have been so glad that I was alive."
FD: When they went as far as Germany on an assumed name to get Arthur out of Russia when they were in Germany. Uncle Bill got out of the environment, that's the first time he saw a merry-go-round. Then on the boat xx they were down on the bottom and somebody threw him a banana and he looked at the banana and he didn't know what it was -- he threw it over. Then he almost had a fight on the boat.
RZ: You were going to tell me about the fight on the boat. What happened on the boat?
FD: Kids, You know...
RZ: You said that Bubbe got sick.
FD: Bubbe was sick and they wanted to throw her over. That's the way Uncle Bill used to tell me because they didn't think she'd pull thru. But thank goodness she did.
RZ: So her life was in danger, and they would have come over by themselves? Of course, they had my mother and Aunt Becky and Aunt Sarah and Uncle Louie here already. Did my mother ever say how she came over? She came over with Becky, didn't she?
FD: I think so.
RZ: Mama didn't talk about that very much?
FD: No. I want to tell you about this here when they got to Ellis Island. Uncle Bill had to go to the bathroom so he went there and he came out and he flushed the toilets when you sat down would pop up you know and he thought the ocean was coming in, he thought he'd done something. He went out and sat in there and he kept on looking at the door to see if the river, uh ocean was coming in.
RZ: This was his first experience with a flush toilet? I've got one I can match him with.
FD: Then another thing he tells. He saw a beautiful red thing and he thought it was an apple. And he bit it and it was a tomato.
RZ: He had tomato juice all over his face.
FD: They came in on a Friday night and your Grandma Bubbe even benchlicht [Licht bentching, candle lighting] on the train. She thought they still had to go, you know, and they got off at Champaign [Illinois] with half clothes and they got out Friday and Monday he was in school. [That's how] quick he was.
RZ: How did they observe the Jewish holidays and Shabbat and where did they go to synagogue and did they keep kosher?
FD: You know they kept kosher. They came to Champaign to Uncle Jake.
RZ: Did they go right from Ellis Island to the train to Champaigne? And of course they were always very observant. You said that Bubbe even benchlicht on the train?
RZ: That's going to please Phyllis. Were there any pogroms where they were? And how did they generally get along with the gentiles? We've already said that they were very well liked by the gentiles. How big was the town they lived in?
FD: That I don't...
RZ: Were there lots of Jews?
FD: I imagine there were quite a bit. They had a shul there and those places.
RZ: I think that I remember Babe Bennett telling me that actually that's how Aunt Sarah met Uncle Jake -- he came there.
FD: He came there as a student at the yeshiva.
RZ: So there must have been a Jewish population if they had a yeshiva. What kind of occupations did the Jews there have?
FD: I don't know -- they never did say much. But I imagine they had tailors and all those ...
RZ: Let's go to the next question because we started this: Discuss my mother as a person. I know that you were very fond of Mother but she wants to know what kind of a person my mother was.
FD: She was a very good person. She had to be good. She worried about her brother in Europe to take him to school, places like that.
RZ: In other words it was Mama who took Uncle Bill to the doctor. I knew that Uncle Bill and Mama were always close. Was my mother a good cook, Aunt Freda?
FD: Yea, she made a rice pudding.
RZ: I know I can't duplicate it.
FD: Nobody can, and not only that, you know what else I can't duplicate -- her sponge cake. That was another thing she made well.
FD: I'll tell you, she really didn't after she was situated, when she had help in the house. She had several women -- I can remember Miss Sharp but I can't remember the girl she had before.
RZ: Linda Bee -- that black girl.
FD: No, this was before that. But they would do the baking and stuff like that.
RZ: If she wanted to she could cook but she was really a business person. What was your feeling about the fact that you went to work? Because you worked with Uncle Bill all the time and I remember you, my mother, Aunt Anna -- you all worked with your husbands. How did you feel about it?
FD: I'll tell you, I didn't want to work. I thought my place was with my family -- raising my children. And I was told that I was no better than the others (than his sisters). In Terre Haute is when I started to work when he had the scrap yard in West Terre Haute. And then from there of course I came to Vincennes and I didn't work. Mildred was almost two years old when Stanley was born and that's when I started to work.
RZ: You started to work when Stanley was born?
FD: Yes.
RZ: But you had full-time help?
FD: At that time I didn't. I'd bring the kids to the shop.
RZ: The kids had to be at the shop with you and you had to work because ...
FD: I'll tell you one thing was different. Aunt Becky Lieberman used to do her mending and stuff at the shop. Uncle Bill would never let me. That's the place at home to do -- you're in business, you don't do that.
RZ: You know, Aunt Freda, one of my early memories as far as the working goes. Uncle Bill used to have the big semis on the road as I recall. I recall that Uncle Bill wasn't around one time and one of the trucks called in and he blew a tire and they didn't carry that many extra tires and I remember you had to make arrangements to get that truck tire out to wherever the trucker was. And I can remember even then how much responsibility you took over.
FD: Then your bubbe, she marveled at me, she didn't say anything then when I made all the arrangements and stuff and then after she said, "My daughter says that they couldn't have done that."
RZ: I remember that you always did all the books.
FD: And then I would come home and have to write the letters and then I would have to prepare supper and take care of putting the kids to sleep and Uncle Bill would take a nap. By the time he got through with his nap he was ready to write the letters and I wasn't.
RZ: Now that's the job that my brother did for my parents, right? He took care of the books and he wrote the letters, and that's why when he would go out to play baseball my father would send Sylvia out to get him and bring him back, right? Those are the family stories that I remember.
FD: Then, too, we were living on Park Street already and then I had help. But I didn't like the way they done my pots so on Sunday when they were gone, I'd clean and scour my pots and that's how I got my bone injury and it was your mother that was there with Uncle Bill when they operated on my hands. See I was black here, and they thought it was from blood poisoning. And she was always there with Bill in emergency.
FD: When he had his appendix out I'll never forget. See he came home. Mildred and Stanley were sick and I called the doctor and he said get Dr. Sur [ maybe Stewart] and Dr. Sur come in and he said - that was after he had the appendix operation. He used to press tires on, solid tires, you remember seeing those? And he came home and he says first call the doctor and he had a kidney stone. But when he was operated on for the appendix -- I was with him and he said to me -- first when he got sick that time he called the doctor and the doctor said, "You have to go to the operating room," and he said, "I can't get away from this house." Dr. Sur said, "You'll go this time and come back, but you go next time, they'll have to bring you on stretchers." And he turned around and he said, "Call Fannie." And your mother came.
RZ: I'm sure she did.
FD: So then when he came out of the ether he said, "It's all over, Freda." Now he says, "You can go back to the shop."
FD: But she was always his first thing. When he was sick she was the first one that he went to and if it wasn't for him, the day Sylvia got married, she wouldn't have been living -- he massaged her to keep her alive.
RZ: Mama passed out just as they pronounced them man and wife and we purposely had a small wedding so Mama shouldn't exert herself too much and I know that they had you give Barney away for the purpose that they wanted -- you and Uncle Bill were the only two from ...
FD: Uncle Jake was there and Aunt Sarah and George Kaplan got in there some way, I don't know. But then I never will forget when Sylvia passed away Aunt Becky said to me at that time, and it kind of hurt me, she said they called me first to this and see because she wasn't to the wedding.
RZ: Because she was hurt because she wasn't ...
FD: But you know sometimes I thought maybe she held a grudge against me. But I don't think she did, I think I was well liked.
RZ: Oh yes, you were very well liked among the family, that I know.
FD: Seems incoherent the way I talk, but uh...
RZ: No, that isn't incoherent, as these things come back...Another thing she wanted to know -- your impression of my father, of her grandpa. Phyllis wanted to know how you perceived ...
FD: Oh he was very...He came to my engagement.
RZ: My father came to your engagement?
FD: He and Uncle Abe Shultz and they helped slice corned beef and salami and bologna in the kitchen. He was always very good to me.
RZ: I know he was very fond of you, that I know.
FD: When I conceived Mildred I was very sick and my bowels locked and the doctor and your father and Uncle Arthur and Uncle Bill made syringes and kept me. And I never will forget your dad turned around to me and he said, "Don't worry, we don't know anything about it."
RZ: He really was very considerate. Did he and mother get along well?
FD: They did until Sylvia was supposed to get married. Then they had a little fuss but it worked itself out and at that time your mother was pretty miserable -- I shouldn't say that.
RZ: We want to hear this because it's water under the bridge and it's not going to change anything.
FD: Because I don't know why he was so upset but he strained her quite a bit. She was under much of a strain at that time.
RZ: The point of it is, he didn't like Barney. It wasn't that he didn't like Barney, he didn't like Barney's father.
FD: I don't know what it was, but he had started to drink. And he sure carried on when your mother got sick. He was very good to her.
RZ: He tells me about the drinking episode. He said he started to drink and one day he got so mad at himself that he took the whiskey bottle and threw it out in the junk yard and until he was instructed to take some schnapps as medicine he really didn't drink after that day. I can remember him having a pint around the house all the time when we lived over on Maple Avenue.
FD: Stanley always says a lot of those things shouldn't be remembered but they always come back to you.
RZ: The point of it is, I think it's a good idea because you see how after all life is not peaceful. We all have our ups and downs. And I think it shows you how he handled it. When he saw that it was really going to interfere with his life, he stopped.
FD: But he loved your mother very dearly And one time your mother was at Aunt Jennie's for quite a while ...
RZ: I know that she went there after she got better after that first stroke and she came home on Labor Day when she had another stroke. I remember that. Can you tell me very much about your mother-in-law -- Bubbe?
FD: She was very wonderful woman.
RZ: She was a wonderful woman. She was a good cook too, wasn't she?
FD: Yes, she was a good cook. One thing she did say to me. I was very sick before Mildred and I always used to have a habit of yelling "Oh mom." And she come over and said, "Oh me, I was there." And I said, "Yes, you're my mother-in-law but you're not my mother, you can't take her place." And I loved -- but she loved me and she liked a dress we gave her the dress to wear and things like that.
RZ: I remember Bubbe coming to visit with much fondness. I remember when Bubbe, you know mother's mother came, with much more fondness than when my father's mother came.
FD: But she wasn't with you. She was down in Louisville. We were all close here in...in
RZ: I think that's another thing. It seemed to me that Bubbe Dumes was able to speak English a little bit, where Bubbe Fishman only spoke Yiddish and I could never communicate with her. And of course one time she caught me coloring on the Shabbat and I got balled out, which I didn't like either. And I don't think Bubbe Dumes would have never said anything.
FD: She would have hid it, you know, and of course one thing. Somebody asked Bubbe Dumes, "Where do you live?" She said, "Wherever I hang my hat." And she wanted to be close to a shul, she was very religious, and that's how she got to St. Louis. Because she wanted to be close to a shul.
RZ: That was one of Phyllis' questions, how religious they were. I wondered how she got to St. Louis.
FD: She wanted to be close to a shul.
RZ: So she could go to..
FD: Walk to shul and, uh
RZ: everyday if she wanted to, because even though there was a shul in Evansville and there was...
FD: well, that was quite a distance to walk. And at that time it was -- they were on 9th street and I think this was -- afterward where they had their TV's.
RZ: That was a long walk -- that I can remember was a long walk.
FD: And too, I can realize now what it was. The children were hurting her doing things on Saturday and things like that, you know.
RZ: The children weren't as observant as she would like them to have been. But she wouldn't say anything, she took herself out instead. It's interesting? She was a very -- she was a good mother-in-law, she was a good grandma.
FD: And when I was coming home from the hospital with Mildred, instead of being at Aunt Anna's and cooking she cooked at my house. I was used to when I benchlicht, I liked my...and things like that and my floor was sticky where she'd make taiglich and carrots. And Uncle Bill turned around to me and he said, "When Mom goes to bed, I'll mop the kitchen." So then in the morning, see I had just come home on Friday, and Saturday she goes to shul. So I tried to bathe Mildred and Anna Shultz didn't come over till then. When she came over she complained about something about what I'd done. And I had a screened-in bed and I was small, short anyhow, and I was tore, very bad, and I would reach over, it would kill me, I sat on a pillow for almost a year.
RZ: I remember some of the family stories that you had it rough after Mildred was born.
FD: And then to top it all off, I never will forget, see, your mother and them came in to go to temple. Uncle Bill and I took Anna Shultz's kids out for a ride that Friday I went to the hospital. And I never will forget, Fannie says, "I hope you'll be in the hospital soon. How would you like me to be as big as Aunt Freda?" He says, "You are already."
RZ: Oh, she was pregnant with me.
FD: Yes. So then we came home. And by that time, Anna and Abe were home and then they used to put me in the tub, in the bathtub and keep on pouring hot water. And then my water broke -- we only knew so much about it -- we didn't know and we didn't have a phone -- he ran to the phone. By the time he come back, I was showing blood so he left me again and he went to call but then he called for a cab and had a cab down.
RZ: Did you deliver Mildred at the hospital?
FD: I had Mildred on the commode, you never knew that, did you?
RZ: Yes, I did hear.
FD: That's where all her troubles, broken and uh...
RZ: That story I had heard. In other words, you had finally delivered and you precipitated the difficulty. If they had taken you to the hospital when you first broke your water bag you would have been all right.
FD: No, see when the doctor -- the nurse came and called the doctor and the doctor said I wasn't ready yet. So I was so used to pain and I had to grip something and I couldn't grip the bed that wide, and Uncle Bill was sleeping sitting in his chair. I got up and they had a commode on the bed and I got down and I strained myself and the nurse came in and she hollered, "Get up from there," and I broke the cord between Mildred and me. And you know when I went in there the nurse thought Uncle Bill was my brother and I was having a child not married.
RZ: Well, that's not as bad as when they thought Albert was Phyllis' brother. She said why did they come to America? Who stayed behind and how did they come and what was their life like as immigrants? Now we've already established the fact that Uncle Louie came first to get out of the army.
FD: No, Sarah came I think and Uncle Jake came first, and then Uncle Louie came and then I think Fannie -- your mother -- and Becky came.
RZ: The way I understood it was that Uncle Jake came over and Mama and Aunt Becky came over before Aunt Sarah did with Hy Kaplan. That's the way I....
FD: I don't know, but I knew that they all followed Uncle Jake.
RZ: But now Uncle Louie and evidently I can remember. We've got some family pictures of Mama and Aunt Becky Dumes together before they were married. Before either were married, or did Uncle Louie meet Aunt Becky in New York?
FD: I think so. And then, see when Uncle Louie, when Bubbe and them came, they met Aunt Becky's mother where they worked at and I think that Uncle Jake was from the locality that Aunt Becky was.
RZ: Oh they were landsmen. In other words, they ran into each other in New York and they were landsmen and so then ...
FD: But your bubbe had met Aunt Becky Dumes' mother in Europe some way in their traveling, I don't know.
RZ: Mama used to talk about the fact -- she used to tell about some of her first jobs. One was on the press and the foreman got fresh with her and she told him to take his job and ...
FD: You know, when they were still in Europe, Bubbe and Aunt Becky wrote that she had a feller. A feller in Jewish is a wound. So they told her to get rid of him And when they came to America Aunt Sarah wrote she had a stove and it had copper, I mean uh. bronze, that uh...nickel, they were looking for the silver, they thought you picked it up...
RZ: They thought you picked it up on the street. They didn't know you had to work for it.
FD: Then too, Aunt Sarah takes Uncle Bill to a show and while he was used to people, rich had upstairs, she takes him to the show and he says, "Wasn't she a cheapskate? She took us to the house.".
RZ: He didn't know that the orchestra seats are usually the most expensive, huh?
FD: See he went to the same class with Beck [Becky]. And she was here as his interpreter and he memorized things and they'd ask him to point and he'd point.
RZ: Did Uncle Bill talk much about his early school days?
FD: He skipped classes. [ ie, he was passed ahead, not "skipping school" ]
RZ: He was very quick.
FD: He wanted to be an engineer. And he liked to work wood. You never did see he had a hand cut and he was making a powder box for some girl and he cut himself on the circular saw and put his hand in his pocket bleeding and went and he couldn't XXXXX. Then he moved to Terre Haute.
RZ: I think I know but you tell me the story how you met Uncle Bill.
FD: This medicine that we sell this fellow he was bootlegging and he in some way was saying that I'm Aunt Sarah in Lima, Ohio, and he got caught. Meanwhile Uncle Bill had gave up his business, his haberdashery. He was broke but he gave up his business and he was going to California but meanwhile he had to say goodbye to his sister in Lima, Ohio. So he stopped there and they talked him into coming to Cincinnati so I was the soul that stopped him.
RZ: So you stopped him from going to California. He was darn lucky is all I can say.
FD: I don't know if he was or not, I was lucky.
RZ: He was lucky and I'll tell you who was luckiest is all your nieces and nephews. You talked about Uncle Bill had a haberdashery. Now after he got out of school is that the business he went into? Did he finish high school?
FD: See he was at this school and see, now that's Rose Poly Technichal, that's where he was at he didn't finish his high school, see, he went into this here vocational school. And then when he had this here hand they talked him out of going to school which to his dying day had always hurt him that he never finished college, or never went to college. Because he had a very keen mind. Then he went to work for Uncle Abe Shultz.
RZ: In the clothing business ...
FD: In the store. And then ...
RZ: Oh the army store you're talking about.
FD: A regular store.
RZ: Uncle Bill went into business on January 4, 1919, and cash on hand $22.40, cash in the bank $9.40, liberty bonds $117.00, Valian and Bole valued at $125.00, typewriter valued at
$58.00. My clothes are of not the best. Max Fishman owes me $30.00, $361.80, $4.00 debits. So he had $357.80. February 18, paid rent for store $25.00 started business. Then May 23, 1921, a summary of my two years' experience in business.
February 18, 1919, with $350.00 continued in business for a little over two years, made over $2,000.00 above and over all expenses. Then went broke account of the fall in prices. My stock was worth about $7,000.00. I owed $5,000.00 goods, dropped half and wiped out any capital. Filed petition of bankruptcy on May 28, 1921. The stock was appraised at about $1,195.11. The account allowed me $600.00 as an exemption and my brother-in-law bought the stock at the half graded value of $548.11. ( That must have been Abe Shultz.) I owed him from before $175.00 and for the stock $548.11, Levin brothers $138.40, my expenses on the store as folded over rent $65.00 and extra rent $26.17 in something $28.75, cash $10.00, other expenses $8.41 bringing the total to $1,000.00 and forward to my mama $200.00, to $1,300.00. I had the $50.00 cash on hand, divided the stock which must have been worth $2,500.00. On December 2, the stock was sold and left me a balance of cash on hand of $600.00. My brother Louie owed me $340.00 and then on the 26th of December, 1921, I came to Lima, had a vacation there and four weeks until January 24, 1922, I came to Cincinnati when I had left Lima. I had cash on hand $25.00, ticket to Cincinnati $4.61, union suit $1.25, other miscellaneous expenses $3.25.
FD: They would have to close, you know, turn the windows all the time. Then somebody stopped and asked him to go with him to take a girl home, and was just a corner, and they were up all night and Bubbe was missing, see he took care of Bubbe. Then she moved and....when Mother came to see me. They -- Bubbe and he were living in Camelton, Ohio.
RZ: And Mama came to visit.
FD: I'd like to somehow get a photostatic of this, so I can let my grandchildren...
RZ: You can let, see if you can let Stanley copy it on the copy machine and see if it comes out, if not then you'll have to go to a professional.
RZ: You don't remember Uncle Bill or any of the sisters or brothers talking about their father very much, do you? (Editor's note: Chaim Yehoshuah died in Europe.)
FD: No. The only thing I can remember Anna saying that she, Stanely, I mean, Bill used to break sugar, he wanted a piece of sugar as big as a loaf of bread, and Anna Shultz said she'd give up all her clothes if her father would live.
RZ: In other words they must have been very fond of him. He must have been a good and loving father. That takes care of most of the questions. Are there any other stories that you can think of to tell us about? Here this is in August--
FD: it was when Bubbe died. As the brothers and sisters were sitting shiva:
August 9, 1933
At the home of Abraham and Rebecca Lieberman, 916 Line Street, Evansville, Indiana.
Resolution:
Whereas our beloved father, Hyman Dumes, died on the 24th day of Shebat, 5664, corresponding to February 20, 1904, and whereas our beloved mother, Shana Freda Dumes, came to an untimely end on the 15th day of Ab 5693, corresponding to August 6, 1933, be it resolved
1. That the Hyman-Sadie Dumes Aide Society be organized and dedicated to the memory of our deceased parents.
2. That the members of this society shall through the work of charity and helpfulness, further the memory of our beloved parents, that their names shall live afer them.
The above resolution is entered into by:
Sarah Kaplan, Daughter
Louis Dumes, Son
Rebecca Lieberman, Daughter
Arthur Dumes. Son
Fanny Fishman, Daughter
Anna Schultz, Daughter
William J. Dumes, Son
(Editor's note: By-laws and minutes followed the resolution.)
RZ: Are there any other stories you want to tell me?
FD: I don't know of any more. [an error occurred while processing this directive]